Some OSU students will wear empty gun holsters this week to protest a state law and campus policy that prevent people with a concealed carry license from carrying their handguns to class.
Their protest will be part of the nationwide Empty Holster Protest organized by Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, which argues that campus police and university warning systems aren’t adequate protection.
“The purpose of the protest is not to scare anyone or disrupt the daily function of college life but rather to educate people,” said Stephen Feltoon, one of the group’s national organizers. “We want people to approach us and say ‘Hey, what’s with the holster?’ giving us a chance to explain that licensed individuals, depending on the state, can carry in restaurants, supermarkets, parks, movie theaters, etc. but for some reason they cannot be trusted to carry on campus.”
Dustin Gaunder, an electrical engineering junior, agreed the protest is an opportunity to educate people.
“There will be no gatherings on the Library Lawn and no people walking around carrying signs,” Gaunder said. “It is a chance to draw attention to our cause. It will be an opportunity for people who are unaware that concealed carry even exists in Oklahoma to realize that it does exist and how common it really is.”
An OSU official said allowing students to carry guns on campus is a dangerous idea.
“I think it creates a very unsafe environment,” said Lee Bird, vice president of student affairs. “Realistically that (shootings) is not our most major problem and I don’t think weapons are necessarily going to help us; I think it will endanger people.”
Although opponents of concealed carry argue allowing people to carry guns will cause an increase gun violence, Stillwater Deputy Chief Ron Thrasher said he doesn’t know of any instances in Stillwater where a concealed carry license was involved in a crime.
More than 450 students from 105 universities have decided to wear an empty holster to protest the policies. At least four OSU students planned to participate in the protest, according to the organization’s Facebook group.
The Empty Holster Protest will take place all this week.
The Virginia Tech shooting earlier this year, which left 33 dead, sparked a national debate about gun-free zones and concealed carry rights.
Some form of carrying a handgun is allowed in 48 states; Wisconsin and Illinois have no legal right to carry.
To receive a license under the Oklahoma Self Defense Act, passed in 1995, applicants are required to pass an eight-hour class, which covers state law and safe gun handling, to be fingerprinted and to go through a background check and pay a number of fees, totaling about $175.
The statute restricts a license holder from carrying in a number of places, including government buildings and schools.
The university’s weapons policy prohibits firearms on campus unless they are properly stored at the OSU Police Department or written consent is given by the university president.
A 2004 Utah law was passed earlier this year that voided gun bans on campuses in that state, giving students the right to conceal carry at their universities.
Sen. Michael G. Waddoups, R-Utah, who sponsored the law, said he hasn’t heard of any problems since the law went into effect and supports it now more than ever.
“If the university can’t protect their guests, they should be allowed to protect themselves,” Waddoups said.
A University of Utah official said people with a concealed weapons permit can bring a gun on campus.
“This law went in to effect with the beginning of the fall 2007 semester, and we have had no incidents on campus,” said Barbara Snyder, vice president of student affairs at the University of Utah.
Bird said differences in drinking, fighting and drug use on college campuses present different issues for carrying a handgun than other locations.
“What would happen with some of the fights that we’ve had, some of the assaults that we’ve had?” Bird said. “If you had a weapons or access to a weapon could that be used instead of just fists? And I think the answer is yes.
“We worry about notification. How do we let people know that there’s a concern or a problem on campus and instruct them where the problem is so that they can run in the other direction,” she said. “It’s a misnomer that we’re going to keep students safe. We can warn them of a danger. We can do our best to prevent dangers on campus, but there are never enough police officers to ensure, whether it’s in the city or on campus or anywhere else, there is no guarantee you’re going to be safe, even if you’re carrying a weapon.”
Feltoon agrees that the police cannot always provide protection and there is no guarantee of safety, but says that is a reason to allow concealed carry.
“My safety isn’t guaranteed,” Feltoon said. “Of course, it’s not guaranteed if I could carry a gun, either, but it still stacks the odds in my favor. We do believe that the right person at the right place at the right time could indeed prevent an attack or, at the very least offer students a fighting chance for survival.”
Bird said there are no easy answers to such a complex issue.
“We all have the same goal,” Bird said. “Our philosophical perspective about how to go about preserving peace and safety is probably different.”
An OSU police official said most on campus crimes involve property and occur when the owner is absent.
“One thing I wish the community here would look at is what type of crime justifies the use of deadly force,” Lt. Mark Shearer said. “We’re not having types of crimes that under normal circumstances would justify the use of deadly force.
“If we were in a metropolitan area … I could probably see people having more feeling towards ‘Yeah, we’ve got to do something to protect ourselves,’” he said.
“I can’t say that a major event will not happen here; however, if you go on the history of what has happened here in the past and you take a look at where we are today, I think we still have a relatively safe environment,” Shearer said.
Bird agreed that students should take responsibility for their safety. Students’ eyes, intellect and cell phones are their best weapons, Bird said. She also said students need to register for the reverse 911 system, which was put in place to help warn students of potential threats on campus.
Although most universities have won the battle to remain gun free, people who support the right to carry a handgun say those restrictions leave law-abiding citizens unprotected.
“An interesting finding we have found is criminals don’t obey the law,” Waddoups said. “Perhaps that is why gun free zones don’t work except in secure areas.”
An instructor who teaches concealed carry classes in Tulsa agrees.
“Regardless of which side of the issue you’re on, as it currently stands, the only people “no guns” signs and laws are keeping out are legally armed, law-abiding, peaceable citizens, the very group of individuals who are, by definition, the most trustworthy with guns,” Paul Melin said. “‘No firearms’ signs give only the illusion of safety and security to students and faculty members, and a very unjustified one at that.”
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I highly appreciate the fairness and balance of this article. Bravo.
However, supporters of a concealed-carry-ban on campuses are honestly living in a fantasy land if they believe such a ban will prevent, or even deter, acts of gun violence. If a criminal wishes to carry a gun, they will. If they wish you bring it on campus, they will. If they wish to shoot someone with it, they will. They don’t stop at a “no gun” sign and think “oh…damn. I guess I’d better go murder someone in a designated area.”
Only “law abiding” citizens abide by the law. Criminals, by definition, do not.
“Bad guys” will always have guns, and crazy people will always kill people. The best you can hope to do, realistically, is even the odds.
Call the Stillwater PD and ask them how many Stillwater criminals have been convicted of murder with a firearm in the last 20 years. Then, ask them how many of those criminals had a conealed carry license. Lastly, ask them how many concealed carry licenses are currenly issued to Stillwater residents.
I think you’ll be surprised at just how many guns there are all around you, every day, that AREN’T killing people… but protecting them.
Any time you make something illegal to have or do, you make it a profitibly enterprise for criminals, and you give them an advantage. (ie: alchohol during prohibition, drugs, and now guns on campus)
Other countries have tried gun control, like Britain and various South American countries. In Britain, only the mobsters now have guns, and thus have free reign over average citizens, and in South America, the criminals have taken to just MAKING guns in their own illegal factories.
You cannot take guns out of the hands of criminals, you can only even the odds by letting good citizens exercise their contitutional right to bear arms for protection.
By the way, students, it’s still not illegal to carry a pocket knife (knock on wood), so everyone should.
I am not aware of any school shootings ever occuring by an individual with a concealed carry license. In fact i did not even find any news stories about any ever committed by people with a carry license. In all of the school shoootings in the U.S. the guns were purchased either illegally or at pawn shops. Criminals are called criminals, because they don’t obey the laws. It should seem pretty obvious that they WILL NEVER obey the laws they don’t want to. If the Virginia Tech shooter had encountered other students with concealed licenses, I honestly believe that he would have been stopped and saved lives.
I will admit I do not feel safe from a shooting here at college. I know we have great campus security personnel, but nothing can ever prevent a criminal from doing what they want. Criminals and terrorists still find ways to achieve thier goals, no matter the laws. Posting a sign outlawing guns on campus is not going to do anything to stop a criminal or psycho from bringing a gun and shooting innocent people.
Next, liberals will be banning pocket knives from us. You can kill someone just as easily with a pencil as a gun if you have the desire.
Countries with gun bans have incredibly huge amounts of illegal gun smuggling, robberies, home invasions, and murders. Disarming law abiding citizens just makes it easier for criminals and regimes to take over. Hitler outlawed guns and burned them when he first came to power, because an unarmed country can’t put up a fight.
oh an P.S. what would have been the outcome of 9/11 if law abiding citizens were able to have concealed carry licenses and their weapons on the airplanes. I believe that the terrorists would not have even attempted to hijack the plane or lived to try.
Jason, you quoted me accurately and fairly. I would say to nay-sayers of concealed carry on campus that Colorado State and all public universities in Utah allow concealed carry on campus with ZERO incidents (so far as I know) as mentioned in the article. To Mr. Lee Bird, this isn’t about school shootings, but what do you say to the 110lb. girl who can’t fight off her 250lb. rapist? What do you say to the guy who gets jumped, robbed, and stabbed? The students at Virginia Tech thought “it couldn’t happen here” but it did, and such thinking is naive. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been crime-free for 50 years, it could still strike at any time, and the biggest thing students have to rely on is that the police will show up a few minutes later to either take a police report.
Remember that when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
I love the logic. There was a shooting a Virginia Tech last year. What we need is more guns on campus! Of course! The one thing we need is intolerant rednecks walking around campus with gun holsters. Unbelievable.
Dr. Lee Bird is a woman.
Wow. So people think carrying concealed weapons on campus will keep them safe? Hmm…So more guns = less criminal activity and violence? I agree with Jeremy, “I love the logic”.
Jeremy and LG: we’re not talking about more guns. It’s more guns used LEGALLY. And it’s actually not even MORE GUNS. It’s LEGALLY-CONCEALED WEAPONS in MORE PLACES. And excuse me, as a yankee LIBERAL DEMOCRAT from Ohio, I am the anti-redneck as are students in Utah and Colorado.
Did you know that it’s not illegal to carry a concealed handgun onto campuses in Virginia (as long as you have a license to do so)?
Also, Washington D.C. and Chicago are some of the most crime-ridden cities and both HEAVILY restrict concealed carry licenses. Firearm crimes there are being committed by unlicensed individuals.
The gun people are right. I mean, even though I question the mental state of a person that wants to walk around with a gun strapped to their leg, these are not usually the types of people that are going to cause problems with their guns. Criminals are not going to go register for the ability to carry a weapon, that would be kind of stupid.
On the other hand, I have no idea what the requirements are for a concealed carry licenses. If they are not stringent enough, then it is very possible that the law-abiding gun carrier could cause more problems than they solve with their guns.
Regardless, I don’t really think this issue matters as much as either side would suggest.
protecting yourself, as well as your family and others, by no means makes you a redneck. Guns are what protects and defends our country. So I guess everyone who has a gun is just a redneck. Why dont you look up the statistics of incidents involving concealed weapon license holders. You will have a hard time even finding any statistics, because it does not happen. People who take the time to get a concealed weapon license respect guns and people. No one is going to go through the trouble and cost of getting a license just to use it to do a school shooting. All a criminal needs to do is buy a gun from the streets, a pawn shop, a car trunk, or from a smuggler on the mexican border. Nothing is stopping a criminal from carrying it onto campus. The only people that abide by these laws are honest citizens.
It is absolutely ridiculous to believe that you will be the victim of an attack like the one on Virginia Tech’s campus. The odds of something like that happenening to you are amazingly small. People attend classes every single day around the world and only a few have suffered the violence of what is the defense for carrying concealed weapons in class. Though the shootings on any campus are tragic, they are so very unlikely. The belief that carrying a weapon of violence will make you safer is equally ridiculous. To live in fear of something that is so unlikely is to let the bad guys win.
It’s silly to assume that a “gun free zone” can make a place safer. What, is the lunatic or rapist going to see the sign & say “Darn, gun free zone, I guess I’ll go back home” Absolutely not. Only a lunatic would think that.
What is this discussion about really? It’s about pro-choice. It’s about some college elitists sitting in a board room deciding to take away my right to decide I’d like to be prepared to defend myself with a tool equal to the tool of any madman or thug. Gun free zones bar me from bringing my gun on campus, and says all I can use to defend myself is a broomstick from the janitor closet. Let’s calculate the odds of my broomstick against a madman with a gun. Whatever they are, they are not good. This isn’t about guns, it’s about FREEDOM!
“”I think it creates a very unsafe environment”, said Lee Bird”
Based on what? Were is there any statistical evidence that shows that law abiding citizens are dangerous when armed? There is no such data. Howver according to Professer Gary Kleck there is lots of data that says that the more armed law abiding people there are in an area, the safer we are.
Mr Bird appears to be speaking off the cuff with no real knowledge on tehe subject. And that is one of the biggest problems. Most of these school administrators are completely ignorant of the research that says they are doing it all wrong. Check out the work of Gary Kleck and John Lott and get some real information on this rather than just having an emotional reaction to the idea.
I’ve had an Ohio Concealed Carry License for nearly two years now, and have carried a pistol on my belt pretty much as often as legally possible during that time. I can assure you that the gun has never jumped out of its holster and gone on a killing rampage; it appears to be trained well enough to stay where I put it. Other than my immediate family and a few close friends, most people have never even noticed it’s there, even when I spend great amounts of time in their presence with no more than a cotton T-shirt covering the gun.
I simply can’t understand why the anti-gun groups in this country can’t understand that people like me are not the problem, and are not even a threat. We are simply those who take personal responsibility for our own safety and for that of our families, as any citizen should do. Granted, crimes that draw national media attention such as the Virginia Tech shootings are rare, but it’s much more common to see rapes and armed robberies on campus. Occasionally, such crimes prove fatal to the victims; in all cases, their lives are irrevocably changed. Would you argue to those few who have been shot, stabbed, raped, crippled or killed that their victimization was acceptable due to the low likelihood of it happening? Would you suggest that they go buy a lottery ticket, since they seem to have that “One in a million” luck streak going for them? There is absolutely no intelligence behind such a statement; only an irrational fear of weapons that you project onto other people.
People predicted the same thing happening all over Oklahoma when the Self Defense Act first passed. They were wrong then. The desire is not for anyone to have a gun on campus, just those who have a legal permit to carry concealed to do so. For those who do not know, to even qualify for the permit, you must be 21, and must pass full background checks by OSBI and FBI. If you want to read more, you can browse the OSBI official site.
http://www.osbi.state.ok.us/PublicServices/SDA.html
Right now in the U.S. 40 of the 50 states have laws that REQUIRE officials to allow qualified citizens to carry a concealed handgun for self defense. The empirical data clearly, and undeniably, show lower rates of violent crime, including gun crime in those states.
To those of you who oppose gun carry: don’t do it! Nobody is forcing you to have a gun. But in the view of a growing majority of Americans: it’s better to have a gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
From the virginia Tech shooting:”Many of the victims had defensive wounds, indicating they tried to shield themselves from Cho’s fire”.
If you want this to be the way you exit the world; hands clutched around your head, while crawling into a corner, hoping for the best. Fine. But don’t take prevent others from trying to stand up for their own lives. Every individual is responsible for their own safety. The police write really good reports about the outcome.
To Katie, I suggest that you check with the FBI reguarding the rarity of of your chances of being assaulted, robbed, raped, or shot. According to FBI statistics for 2005, guns were used DEFENSIVELY in the U.S., 2.5 MILLION times. (Don’t belive me? Go look it up) So before you tell me that chances are it wo’nt happen, I would invite you to tell the familys of those shot in Virgina, that there is almost no chance that they could have been shot.
if the colage thinks the students that can carry legally are not well enough trained then start a class to train them to their satisfaction and let them protect their self and others that think they don,t need it . gun free zones have the most crooks in them because they know they are safe . i would not go in a store that prohibits you from carrying a gun . if you tape the wings of birds and turn a fox in the birds would be hepless so untape their wings and let them protect their self
It’s great that students protest a university denying them their 2ed Amendment rights. But they should do more than just protest. When I was a student at a college which prohibited guns on campus I took matters into my own hands and carried a gun in defiance of the law. I now live in California which refuses to issue CCW permits to most law abiding citizens. So I continue to defy an unconstitutional law that denies our rights under the 2ed Amendment. I carry a gun without a permit. I’m proud of the fact Im a “criminal”, spelled with a small ‘c’. and encourage others to follow my example.
Katie, I would like you to talk to the Virgina Tech victims’ families to see just how rare it is. It is not rare to the thousands of families and people affected by every shooting.
I am no law expert, but i did learn a few things here at college. First off, the federal Constitution is above a univeristy law. States, towns, and schools cannot deny our rights in the Constitution. It’s very ironic that the ACLU defends the Constitution so much, yet fights against our 2nd amendment. So, John Luvaro you are not a criminal. I get what you are saying. The Consitution trumps any little university law. You have the right to still carry your weapon.
To opponents of gun carrying, check the laws required to carry one. You have to be 21, no criminal record or history, pay tons of fees, go through classes, take safety courses, register the gun, carry I.D., etc…the list goes on and on. I highly doubt a criminal is going to take the time and effort to go through all that just to carry a gun on campus, when all they have to do is just buy a gun off the streets and walk on campus. I doubt a criminal will see a NO GUNS ALLOWED sign posted and say, “Oh darn i can’t carry this on campus, cuz the sign says no.” HAHA ya right.
Hey folks, here’s the solution:
Allow the student permit holders to cary on campus but limit them to a 9mm or .38 cal. over/under derringer. With this pistol it would be very difficult to pull off a massacre, but very easy to stop one.
What was I thinking having an opposing opinion in a group that has absolutely no intention of hearing the other side, while I can see the side of those who would like to defend themselves, I don’t think that any of you are trying to see it from the perspective of someone that feels less safe when more guns are in the equation. I also made a specific point of mentioning the tragic loss of life and in no way intended to downplay the hurt and loss experienced by all families of violence. I also know that Cho was able to get a license to purchase the weapons that he used in the massacre. The more easily that people are able to get guns the more likely these things are to happen. Yes, I am sure that there are loads of people that carry guns responsibly, as responsibly as you can carry a gun, but that does not make me feel safer.
Hey folks, here’s the solution:
Allow student and staff permit holders to cary but limit them to 9mm or .38 cal. derringers. With this pistol it would be very difficult to pull off a massacre, but very easy to stop one
Katie:
Just as in medicine the efficacy of any given treatment for a malidy (violence in this analogy) is determined objectively by statistical outcomes of applying various remidies. Guns in the hands of screened and trained citizens has a substantial body of statistical evidence to show a suppressive effect on violent assaults on people. Perhapps this is why the discussion seems one sided to you.
Katie said: “Yes, I am sure that there are loads of people that carry guns responsibly, as responsibly as you can carry a gun, but that does not make me feel safer”
I’m sorry that you feel that way. Sometimes it’s hard for reason to overcome simple emotions. One of the best way to get the emotions under control is to expose yourself to the thing you fear. I strongly recommend that you go to a local firing range and hire an instructor to teach you how to handle and shoot firearms. Perhaps you’ll see first hand that the mere possession of a gun doesn’t turn you into a crazy (even though you’ll probably be nervous). Who knows, you might even find that you like the sport/discipline of shooting…
Katie - Re: Your “Unsafe feelings”
I invite you to feel UNSAFE, because there are a lot of us out there carrying guns: many more that you realize. Some of us pack guns legally, and some like me pack ILLEGALLY.
Be AFRAID. Be VERY AFRAID! Have a FEARFUL day. :-)
LMAO
My personal feelings are mixed.
I don’t think that any person with a concealed carry weapon will intentionally endanger me. However, I do believe that a college campus is not a safe place for weapons. I believe that the only way to make a carry on campus law work would be to require that weapons be stored in a gun safe or similar when not in use. Alcohol use and gun use have long proved to be a deadly combination, and both the carrier and people who may have access to an unlocked weapon can be dangerous.
The other concern that I have is regarding the school shootings that so many are concerned about. Using Wikipedia as a source, I count 9 shootings at universities in the past 40 years. Though it would be best if that number was zero, it’s still low. I’m of the opinion that concealed carry could cause problems in a shooting. The addition of multiple shooters increases the danger of the situation. It is probable that, only knowing that a person is shooting towards others, two people with licenses will engage each other. Also, people killed by a bullet fired from someone trying to stop a shooter are just as dead one of the shooter’s victims.
There are some benefits to allowing concealed carry on campus, but I don’t believe that the benefits outweigh the problems that it has the possibility to cause.
I would like to point out that students have been carrying concealed weapons on campus for years since the law was passed in the 90’s. There has never been an incident or shooting where a person with a concealed weapon license went crazy and started a massacre. Guns in hollsters of the responsible licensed citizens do not accidently slip out and shoot people. Guns are piece of metal. They are a tool. Guns do not make people go crazy. The people are crazy to begin with and use the gun as a tool to kill. It is all in the intention of the holder. I am getting my concealed license next year and i have never shot anyone, been in legal trouble, or had thoughts of shooting anyone. I was brought up with respect for firearms and people. I am going to use it to defend myself against the growing number of rapes, robberies, and school shootings.
Terrorists would be alot less likely to hijack a plane if they knew that the passengers had legal firearms. BTW for Katie’s info and others the concealed weapons license restricts people to small handguns and there are certain weapons you can have according to law. We are not talking about people carrying machine guns on campus. The guns legally allowed to be carried are small handguns with a clip holding 9-15 rounds at the very most possible. A majority of people carrying conealed weapons only have a 6 shot revolver. Hardly a massacre inducing weapon.
Katie claims school shootings are rare. Does she watch the news. There are foild attempts or sucessful attempts every week in the U.S. Thousands of murders and break-ins occur every single day in the U.S. A store clerk was just robbed yesterday and maced. You think that robber would have been there if he knew the clerk had a legal gun. I doubt it.
“I believe that the only way to make a carry on campus law work would be to require that weapons be stored in a gun safe or similar when not in use.”
That is entirely reasonable and any person who is a responsible gun owner routinely takes steps just like this.
“I’m of the opinion that concealed carry could cause problems in a shooting. The addition of multiple shooters increases the danger of the situation. It is probable that, only knowing that a person is shooting towards others, two people with licenses will engage each other.”
This is all POSSIBLE, but anyone can come up with difficult hypothetical situations. One needs to look at the FACTS, not the doomsday hypotheticals. It turns out that there is a substantial database of actual concealed carry and use of firearms by civilians in many different situations. The FACTS are that the police (and other good guys) rarely have any trouble sorting out the GG’s from the BG’s. Also, everyone who carries knows and accepts the risk of being mistaken for a BG, although I don’t know of any instances of dire consequences.
It is the job of the police to sort out the BG’s from the GG’s…any cop who says that he would automatically shoot someone holding a gun and not threatening anybody with immediate harm should be disciplined and retrained.
Most likely scenario is cop approaches active shootout, yells “Drop your guns!!
GG puts down his gun and raises his hands.
BG keep shooting.
Case closed.
Katie,
I’m sorry you feel that way. The simple fact of the matter is, though, that how safe you feel does not, and should not dictate the actions of other free people. Bearing arms (in this context, carrying a handgun) is one of the most basic rights protected by the Constitutions of the United States and virtually every State. It does not depend on the feelings or opinions of any person in order to exist.
Those of us who choose to exercise that right responsibly should be allowed to do so, regardless of where we are.
Lee Bird provides no evidence to support the argument that concealed carry creates an unsafe environment;it’s simply a belief.
LG:
“Wow. So people think carrying concealed weapons on campus will keep them safe? Hmm…So more guns = less criminal activity and violence? I agree with Jeremy, “I love the logic”.”
The logic is truly there if you look at the numbers objectively. While anyone can skew statistical data, if you look at the raw data for the right to carry, it has been successful everywhere it has been implemented. So, YES more guns = less crime.
Katie:
“The belief that carrying a weapon of violence will make you safer is equally ridiculous. To live in fear of something that is so unlikely is to let the bad guys win.”
“Yes, I am sure that there are loads of people that carry guns responsibly, as responsibly as you can carry a gun, but that does not make me feel safer.”
This is how I explained my decision to carry to my mother, that was totally against the idea. Do you wear a seatbelt? The odds of getting into an accident are fairly low and yet it is the law to wear a seatbelt. Why is it that when seatbelts are mentioned, the famous quote of “If it saves only one life it will be worth it” always comes up? But, as soon as you use that same phrase for CCW it suddenly does not apply? The answer is simple, emotions over facts.
I have been driving for over twenty years and I have only been in three incidents where my seatbelt cam into play. On the other hand, I have been a CCW holder for only four years and I could have used my handgun to deter two potential perpetrators. In both incidents my fiancé was at work, as an apartment manager, and was threatened with being shot. In the first incident the threat was heard on a 911 call and it ONLY took 45 minutes for the police to arrive. In the second incident the police were much quicker, it ONLY took 30 minutes. I was not there at the time of the threats. If I was, both of us would have been much safer with a handgun or other weapon. I can not fault the police. They can not be in every place at every time and it is a “first to call, first to get served” situation. The only reason she does not have a weapon at work is because she would be fired if her boss found out about it. I told her to forget about that and worry about her own safety. Just in case you were wondering, the first incident was in a “bad” area of town that she no longer works in and the second incident was in a “good” part of town.
So, let’s figure the odds in my case; 1:7 for seatbelt use and 1:2 for CCW use. It is a very easy decision for me.
Jack, I don’t want you carrying a gun if you fail to see how letting anyone who’s licensed to carry have a gun on campus is possibly unsafe.
Accidents, acts of maliciousness and other tragedies could occur. There. That’s how it’s unsafe.
I have not at all argued against concealed weapons in any other case besides the classroom, which are all irrelevant in this argument. In addition the odds of a shooting in your classroom is HIGHLY unlikely when you look at the number of students sitting in classrooms all around the world on any given day. The number of car accidents in which people are killed because of not wearing a seatbelt make it extremely likely that not wearing a seatbelt could get you killed. There is absolutely no logic going for the side of the gun carriers. The good news also is that I have a graduate degree in philosophy, so I know that an emotional argument cannot be justification for taking your so called rights away. I am not arguing from emotion at all, the more guns in any equation the more risk that innocent people will be killed.
DW:
Your last sentence sums it up nicely:
“Those of us who choose to exercise that right responsibly should be allowed to do so, regardless of where we are.”
Unfortunately I live in one of the 10 States which prohibits most law abiding citizens from carrying concealed weapons. But, as you point out, it’s our Constitutional right to do so. Therefore, I defy the law and carry a gun without a permit. Bad laws invite defiance and should be broken.
Katie: keep in mind that “feeling” safe & actually being safe are two vastly different things. Take for example the person who feels unsafe on an airplane but is fine driving around in a car every day. That person “feels” more safe in a car even though he or she is actually 60 times more likely to die in a car crash than a plane crash.
How many madmen have gone on shooting sprees in Police stations, gun shows, gun club meetings, etc. where they know many folks are armed? None. How many have taken places in defenseless victim zones known as “gun free zones” - all of them. Feeling safe & being safe are not to be confused.
Be aware that your right to “feel safe” does not over-ride my right to my second amendment rights. There is not an amendment for the right to feel safe, but there is an amendment for the right to keep & bear arms.
john luvaro:
Think Dr. MLK & carry on!
john luvaro:
Dr. Martin Luther King also broke bad laws and became a national hero for doing it. Your in good company.
Dr. Martin Luther King also broke bad laws and became a national hero for doing it. Your in good company.
Any one that has a conseld carry permit should be able to carry anywhere, espishely on school campus. Furthermore all instructors should be required by law to posess a concealed carry permit and be and be trained to use it.
Why couldnt the university have said no guns in classes? Instead they banned them from the entire university. The only people that obey these bans are law-abiding citizens.
When i get my concealed weapon license next year i’m carrying it everywhere with me and i’ll take the university to court, along with anyone else that violates my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
Why aren’t you this passionate about the constitutional rights your president has taken from you?
Chris, the majority of my concern is being caught in the crossfire, the other is a more minor issue.
Kyle, John - the text of the Second Amendment does not state that citizens have an unlimited right to weaponry. The first clause is important too “A well regulated militia being, necessary to the security of a free State,…”.
That isn’t the only interpretation, but a valid one is that the several states can regulate weaponry and how it may be used within the state.
Gah. Mistyped that. Move the comma over.
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,…”
it says clear as day THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. it doesnt say you can bear arms only here, pay a fee for this, take that class, dont carry it there, etc. The point of this is the government is taking our rights away by constantly ignoring the constitution and making thier own laws. They have done this with the 1st amendment as well.
It says that because having a militia is important, people should have the right to bear arms. They felt that a _well regulated_ population with weaponry was important. The framers were careful with their language. If they had wanted for the provision to be limitless, they would have worded it differently.
Classes, fees, registrations, limits on acceptable weapons and places are all ways to “regulate” arms.
That is not the 18th century meaning of “regulated”. It meant more like “trained” or “competent”.
You’re sitting in another boring lecture, about to nod off when suddenly there is a commotion in the hallway. The doors of the room burst open, and a man with a pistol enters and begins firing. You see a student go down, and you duck under the desk for cover. You watch in horror as the man with the pistol walks down the aisle and methodically shoots dead each student he comes to. He pauses to reload his gun, the silence seems to last an eternity. Then the shots come once more. Nobody opposes him. You see him getting closer. If your hand were to reach inside your backpack at this very moment, would you rather it fall upon a cell phone or the grip of a gun?
Hypothetical scenario? Nope. It’s already happened more than once. It happened at Virginia Tech, when ONE armed madman was able to methodically take the lives of more than THIRTY innocent students who were helpless to oppose him. He reloaded numerous times. No one was able to stand against him. Those victims were denied the most effective means of self-defense. I’m talking about more than THIRTY innocent lives here, cut short by ONE man with a gun. Those people deserved a better chance for survival than the one they were given. Violent and crazed offenders like the one at VT only understand one thing… force. Students and professors are the ones on the front line in such situations. They’re there, as it’s happening, watching their friends’ lifeless bodies hit the floor because they have no means to stand against the evil that has assailed them.
When we disarm lawful students and citizens, we are effectively asking them to cower under a desk and wait for the person pulling the trigger to decide who lives and who dies. Simple as that. “Gun-free zones” are nothing but shooting galleries full of innocent lives. Of course, all the law-abiding folk dutifully disarmed themselves upon entering, leaving behind the very means that might enable them to live another day.
The problem isn’t with too many guns, it’s with too many innocent victims who never stood a chance. This is about so much more than just some inanimate pieces of metal. It’s about not having to let another individual choose the moment that your life ends with the pull of a trigger. A gun is nothing but a tool. Its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Let’s stop talking about “feeling” safe, and start doing something that will actually “make” people safe for a change.